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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:23:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Tarminic
CCP knows there's a problem, but coming up with a solution that both encourages more people to enter low-sec and makes both pirates and carebears happy is a tough proposition.
Agreed it is not a simple problem but this is an issue that has been discussed many times here and I think some good ideas have been put forward that balances carebears vs. pirates rather well.
A big part of the issue is guards for carebears who may be (say) mining are disadvantaged from the get go. A guard cannot be proactive when guarding and has to wait for the bad guys to attack else they will lose sec status. A ding here and there is no biggie but if you make a habit of being a guard you'd find yourself negative in short order which many people care about. That or wait for the pirates to make the first move (allowing them the initiative which is huge). The pirate who is already -10 doesn't give a crap.
Add to that pirates seem to invariably target the miners/haulers despite any guards around. And of course the miners/haulers pop real quick. So, all the pirates really need care about is a gank while the guards need to protect and gank (meaning they need more ships...some to guard via various boosts and some fit to gank attackers).
Now add that PvP fit is > PvE fit so ratters are SOL.
A lot of that I think is solvable if they bothered. Maybe a deployable shield bubble miners can sit under (but cannot warp out of while active). This allows time for the guards to engage the pirates and pirates pretty much have to deal with the guards first. If the guards die the miners are stuck or if the miners decide to drop the shield and scoot they become vulnerable. Fun decisions. :)
Or have a deployable that "claims" a belt temporarily. Anyone warping to the belt gets a message that it is essentially an NBSI zone for ALL parties. While active if pirates warp in guards can engage immediately with NO sec hit (likewise pirates get no sec hit if they shoot first). The deployables of course would be temporary and could be limited to having only one active for the person who dropped it (and they must remain in the area or the deployable self destructs).
In both cases above pirates are not nerfed and carebears have some reasonable means for protecting themselves (if they bother...if they don't and want to solo mine in low sec they get what's coming to them).
Doubtless there are other ideas (maybe having a guard use its shields to protect a miner/hauler and say only industrial class ships [in this case meaning haulers/miners] can accept such protection so other PvP is not unbalanced]). Whatever...a little creativity can solve a lot of this.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:04:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
If it is good enough, miners like me would even pay for the protection with a % of the mining. You can tell by scanning their ship how much ore they can pull in per hr and charge accordingly. If you have enough leadership skills, all of the miners could be in your fleet and share bonuses and get the carebear pvp'ers flashing red for you. However, if you're going to charge, you would have to offer some kind of insurance for failure to protect such as replacement of implants and ship mods.
This is part of the problem.
1) Effective guarding is difficult and short of a very serious and *sustained* effort miners will still get popped.
2) Perhaps more importantly, by the time you are done paying guards enough to make it worth their time, you will find it FAR more profitable to mine just about anything in hi sec. Not to mention a lot safer and simpler.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 16:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kale Kold
Ideas:
1). Cap ships should be banned from everywhere but 0.0 (this will make pirates happy)
2). Huge (non-self claimable) bounties should be put on pirates (-5.0 outlaw chars). (this will make anti-pies happy)
3). Complexes should be brought back and top ores in the belts. (This will make the carebears happy.)
1) Taking down POS without cap ships is a real pain (enough of a pain with cap ships).
2) Not possible. Just have a mate pod you and collect the bounty and give it to you (or use a second account to pod yourself).
3) It is waaaay too easy for pirates to camp plexes. Top ores would just tick off 0.0 folk.
However, to enable anti-pies more I think there should be a Kill Rights market. Say I am a noob carebear and get ganked...I cannot really go after the pies myself. Instead I should be able to sell/trade/give my kill right to someone else...add in the bounty part there. Then that guy who is more capable/willing can go hunt the pirate with no worries about sec status and so on.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:44:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Aria Selenis
I don't really see a downside to this. The pirates can't cheat the system, the anti-pirates / bounty hunters get a system that actually works, and rewards them for going after more difficult prey.
The downside is the reward is not enough to justify the effort and risk (pirate might blow you up).
Only way to fix that would be to raise the prices of clones dramatically and that would cause people to howl from one end of EVE to the other.
I still the a Kill Rights trading mechanism would work great and revitalize (actually create the really never existant) bounty hunter trade as advertised on the box.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 17:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 14/03/2008 17:54:03
Originally by: Julius Romanus
Really? Because people rat and mine in 0.0 quite a bit, and not always in space thats friendly. I used to rat in syndicate and dodge the local 'wiseguys' patrols. Absolutely no different than a pirate crew passing through system. Difference was, it was worth the risk to ship AND pod. Where as lowsec isn't worth the risk of your ship past the days of ratting in a top tier frigate or kessie.
It's waaaay easier to ninja mine/rat in 0.0 than low sec. The hard part is getting past the choke points but once past it is vastly easier.
Most of 0.0 is empty with no one for many, many jumps around. Keeping an eye on local to spot the one dude who may pop by in 12 hours is a breeze. Cloak up and wait him out. Simple. However, trucking out all your loot can be a problem.
Most of low sec is far different. People are passing through even the most low traveled systems with some regularity. I made a concerted effort to find a backwater, low traveled low sec system a few months ago. I went deep into Amarr and Minmatar and Gallente (skipped Caldari since it is way overpopulated) low sec space. I made a point of staying off highways, looked for dead end systems and systems with no stations in them. Longest I waited for someone to stop by and come looking for me (I could see probes out and/or them passing through a belt I was cloaked in) was 20 minutes. This after about 20 hours actual time spent zooming around looking (I was probing moons too so I would hang in each system a good while to get a sense of it).
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 14/03/2008 20:04:51
Look...the answer is not in making low sec a lot more profitable (it could use a bit of a boost though on general principle). Others have noted this although I do not think the major downside is making more pirates. There are already plenty...you can hardly move in low sec before bumping in to some in short order. More would mean they would probably fight each other more (maybe not a bad thing).
The major problem is you really cannot put enough value in low sec as it is to make people want to go there. The rewards would frankly need to be better than 0.0 is now since today I have a better shot at getting in and ratting and surviving some 0.0 than I do in low sec. Making low sec that valuable is a game breaker.
The solutions for low sec, whatever they are, will be changing mechanics so people have a chance at getting by out there. As noted earlier there are some possibilities that do not nerf pirates or carebears but merely allows for more ability to defend yourself in low sec. One would think pirates would be thrilled as this could quite possibly bring back some of the much coveted small gang PvP.
As it stands it is running a gate camp, running a station camp and positively forget about mining/ratting. Once you are caught (webbed/scrammed) it is over 99.9% of the time for the guy caught...just dead and who the hell wants to sign up for that? That needs to be changed. Make it so pirates succeed FAR less frequently and you encourage more people out there. While pirates may have less chance at success each opportunity they should be able to get a lot more opportunities overall. On balance they get roughly the same number of kills and are more active seeking this out which equals more fun (has to be more fun than camping a station and hoping one of the corned carebears decides to make a break for it in a shuttle once per hour...I watched this once and thought to myself how pirates could possibly complain about mining being boring).
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 20:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Make it so pirates succeed FAR less frequently...
HOW?
All encounters are gank situations, many vs. 1. How exactly can you make MANY succeed infrequently vs. ONE, pray tell? I mean, in every game out there and in every possible RL situation, getting ganked by many means your solo behind is dead.
Off the top of my head (not saying they are good ideas but things that could be thought of):
- Make lock times longer (be it via modules the target fits or nerfing overall lock times)
- Make warp stabs and scrams a chance based thing like EW. You may have the scram awhile then fail a scram. Target ship might have a chance to escape (devil is in the balancing there but no reason it could not be done).
- Keep smartbombing cap ships far away from gates/stations (yeah I know they in theory cannot SB near a gate but faction smarties get them the range they need).
- Allow guards a chance to...you know...guard. As I suggested before maybe a little deployable shield bubble that miners/haulers can sit under while guards duke it out with pirates (ships in the bubble cannot use weapons/drones or warp away while shield is active...effect should last 1 minute after shield is down...so if pirates win they can still gank the miners).
- Get gankers off the gates/stations altogether. In return find ways for them to pluck you out of space mid-warp with a warp disruption bubble or something (I have heard this is possible but never seen it...I would think if it was possible people would do it more). Then lazy ships go in straight to the station and get caught on that vector. Smart pilots take time to zoom to planets or belts to come in on a different line. Pirates and players game around trying to out guess the other (could also make scanning/probing more a tactical tool).
Don't kill me on specifics...have not really thought all the above through but the point is there are possibilities and maybe with tweaks some of the above or entirely different ideas could make EVE more fun for everybody.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: isdisco3
By engaging in pvp in any form, we are risking our ships and possibly (but hopefully not) our pods. As a result we make somewhat good income (its definitely not a lot as any pirate can tell you; veto even puts our ransoms up in our publicly available forums if you want to fact-check). A hulk pilot sitting in highsec afk mining risks absolutely nothing and is as close to 100% as you can get in EVE (his only enemies being the newly-formed Jihadswarm). His rewards should be miniscule to the point of being worthless, because his risk is miniscule to the point of being 100% safe.
I would not call what most pirates in low sec do as "PvP" except in the broadest definition of the term.
I frequent a low sec station and it is almost perpetually camped by a local pirate group. They sit outside with as many as 8 ships including a carrier and pounce on anything that comes out of the station. On the very rare occasion I have seen someone bring a similar group to fight them they just dock at the station they are hugging. Same if they gate camp (they keep scouts out and see trouble long before it becomes a worry for them). Their risk is near nothing. They are all -10 pilots too and revel in it rather than seeing it a hindrance.
And Hulk pilots in high sec almost perfectly safe? Maybe you missed Goons going after them recently. Last I checked (about a week ago) Goons had suicided over 120 Hulks in hi sec in about a week. Then ask if a freighter pilot with 1+ billion ISK in cargo feels safe in his defenseless and staggeringly slow 1 billion ISK ship.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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